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Math Investigations

Submitted by Shawne on Sat, 01/19/2008 - 1:04pm.

I wanted to let the Montclair community know about a petition out there to express our concerns on the "new" math investigations. My daughter has been doing math this way for 2 years now (she is in 3rd grade at Henderson) and she can't do simple math. It is January, half way through 3rd grade, and they are not doing multiplication or division! Now we did get multiplication and division paper wheels to do at home with our children this past week; however after my daughter has had 6 hours of school, at least 1 hour of homework and reading for at least 30 minutes I don't want to put more on her. Don't get me wrong, we work with her on all her school work (it's our job too) it's just not right to have to relearn math at home.

Below is a link that all PW County parents should read. If you agree please sign the petition. I apologize if this offends anyone, but this is a very important topic.

www.pwcteachmathright.com

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Total agreement
Submitted by Brad-Hancock on Sat, 01/19/2008 - 6:23pm.

I am in total agreement with you on this topic. My daughter is only in first grade, but I fear for her mathematical development under the current curriculum. To me, this is a clear case of "dumbing down" the curriculum to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Changes like this are another reason the US is losing the lead (you can even argue has lost the lead) in technological development. We need to be challenging the bright kids rather than just trying to make sure the not so bright ones can keep up.

Brad Hancock
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

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Another Experiment
Submitted by R. Boisvert on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 12:14pm.

Shawne,

You should be very much concerned because Brad hit the mark with his comment. The folks at Independent Hill have way too much time on their hands so they get to try "experiments". This is just another one of those lets "try it" and see if it works deals to take math to the lowest common denominator. After spending $$$$$ of a current $800 million budget for this new scheme (fad) the same folks will change course and ask for even more $$$$$ to undo their mistakes...remember open classrooms anyone????? The children will suffer the consequences unless the parents step fwd and supplement their childrens' education at home (to keep them competitive)and at the same time force the "enlightened ones" at Independent Hill to seek employment elsewhere.

I watched some of the COMCAST broadcast of the School Board meeting where several folks spoke about this subject, including the comments from the Independent Hill "expert" conducting a study of the program. Not only was I concerned.....I was frightened to hear what this "expert" was saying. Needless to say our School Board reps were clueless.

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Playing Devil's Advocate
Submitted by Geoffrey Winkworth on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 11:16am.

There are so many other factors contributing to the whole "dumbing down" process: the need for instant gratification and the apathy it creates, the fact parents are spending less quality time with their children, political correctness. Let's face it - folks have forgotten how to think for themselves.

If the system is pushing this curriculum and only this curriculum, then yes, I too have a problem with it. However, my understanding is this curriculum was designed to encourage students to think creatively, develop their own problem-solving strategies, and work cooperatively. If that's the case, and provided it's not replacing the old school ways of teaching, I'm all for trying something new if it gets our kids to use some of that gray matter.

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I would agree with you, but...
Submitted by Shawne on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 2:11pm.

You are correct that some schools are teaching the "traditional" way along with the "new" way; however most schools are not. Teachers were told originally that they needed to teach math the new way only and that the children were to get the problem wrong if they showed any other way (of course now they are trying to cover their asses by saying that all the schools misunderstood). For two years when the students in my daughters class have not shown their work the investigations way they get it marked wrong even when the answer is correct! When the Potomac News did a front page story on this the school system said that the teachers can accept both ways. So when I took this to my teacher she said that she would not accept any way except investigations unless she received word from the Hill.

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Then we agree its a problem
Submitted by Brad-Hancock on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 7:51pm.

As stated above, it is "the only approved method for teaching." There are a few teachers, including my daughter's, who have taken it upon themselves to teach the old method. They do so only because they choose to. The county approves the new method alone. I heard from another parent who found that his child could not do simple addition. He taught her the traditional method, which she performs well, but her teacher requires her to explain her method because it is not the approved method. When the child gets nervous and has trouble explaining it, she gets it marked wrong, even when the answer is correct. How is that encouraging creativity?

Brad Hancock
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

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Change is hard
Submitted by thebyrd on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 12:03pm.

I could be wrong, but I believe my 3rd grader is being hit the hardest with this method. I think they started it with the 2nd graders last year and continued with 3rd graders this year. My 2nd grader (son) can answer math questions faster than his sibling, who is now a third grader (daughter). My kids go to Ashland. I really love the school and the teachers, but the school board needs some community input. I completely understand that new ways of doing things are extremely hard to accept, especially when there is not enough background to support such a change, but you have to start somewhere. I just wish they didn't start in Prince William County. Call me selfish, but where are the days of learning your times table? from 1x1 all through 12x12? Then on the other end of the spectrum, last year as a 2nd grader my daughter had to come up with a business, show the business plan, answer a lot of questions about the business, such as customers, materials required, market conditions and other things that I personally didn't see appropriate for a 2nd grader.

On another note, please don't beat up the teacher. The teachers are doing their jobs as mandated by the School Board. Back to school night was just ugly display of out of control frustrated parents taking it out on the teachers.

THanks for posting the website and starting this topic. It is extremely serious matter that should not be left on any back burners.

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Potomac News on Math Investigations
Submitted by Chris Casey on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 9:19am.

I see today this subject got covered by The Potomac News...

End to school math program sought
Potomac News
1/24/08

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Washington Post on Math Investigations
Submitted by Chris Casey on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 12:05pm.

seems like this story is finding some legs...

Math Classes At Elementary Schools Prompt Parents' Outcry
The Washington Post
1/24/08

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Methods
Submitted by TGBWC on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 10:58pm.

I have heard much in the community about Investigations. I have read the articles, the comments, and have experienced it through my own second grader at Ashland ES. I think the method of teaching that Investigations supports is a good one. I am surpised and somewhat dismayed at many of the comments I read in the papers from people who are against the program simply because it does not rely on only rote memory and algorithms. One compared memorizing the alphabet to memorizing math facts. I say memorizing the alphabet does not teach one to read just as memorizing math facts does not teach one to problem solve. Another thought that math should be kept in the math department and language arts in the language arts department. You have to realize that subjects are integrated...that we read and write in all subjects. I think it is important for students to be able to explain how they arrived at an answer. Knowing that 7x2=14 is fine if the problem is simply 7x2=? However, does the child know when to use multiplication? Can he/she explain that it is the same as adding 7 twice? Could he/she also count by two's seven times? Having a second grader find out how many fingers and toes are in their family to introduce counting by fives makes sense. It is a good activity. I do think that Investigations should be one part of a whole math curriculum, that there is room for memorization, and that the program should be supplemented when needed, however many people are against it just because it doesn't teach math the way they were taught.

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Great Input - Investigations
Submitted by mcconnellsts on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 9:52am.

TGBWC this is 'the best' comment I've seen on this website. Thanks.

I’m not up on this topic, and I don’t have a dog in this fight; since my son is out of the PWCS system and now working on his Aerospace Engineer degree. So I think very highly of our county’s Math/Science specialty program at Graham Park; and the iT specialty program at Forest Park. I support and would like to see more emphasis on our nation’s Math/Science programs.

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Abolish Investigations!
Submitted by TJ Southard on Sat, 01/26/2008 - 7:59pm.

And Stop Experimenting with my child's math future.



Mcconnellsts, I'm sure your son didn't go through investigation since he is obviously proficient in math. The Math program has changed a bit and that's why I would like it abolished. I'm not attacking TGBWC by saying this, but I believe you'll have a rude awaking when your second grader moves to 3rd. With all due respect, when you spend 2 hours on math homework, when you know your son or daughter could have done it in 20 minutes the "old way", then you'll understand my outrage.

I believe in learning math, you do need to start out with blocks and visuals but that's not new. As soon as a child passes over in to more complicated figures, then we need to stop counting toes.


Oh yeah, CHECK THIS OUT! - when my daughter does her math home work, if she shows her work with all the boxes, ticks, and rounding everything up to the closest 10's and handing in a problem that looks like a bugs bunny schematic and gets the answer wrong - IT'S MARKED RIGHT! - BUT - if she does math with one figure on top of one another efficient in every way and gets the correct answer - IT"S MARKED WRONG!

The reason being, and this comes from the teachers manual on division algorithms, "It is simply counter-productive to spend precious class time on such algorithms. The mathematical payoff is not worth the cost , particulally because quotients can be found quickly and accurately WITH A CALCULATOR" - and this is what you want!... our kids to be dependent on calculators..... you're kidding right?


This program is a total waste of money and time, and if PWCS did their research before spending our money they would have found out that this math is confusing, convoluted and over all comical in design. Kill this program now before we waste any more of my child's class time.

- TJ

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Not convinced
Submitted by Brad-Hancock on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 2:32pm.

I completely agree that word problems are part of math, but perhaps a bit more advanced part than 1st grade.

I also completely agree that memorization is not the way to teach or learn math. However, I am very concerned that they are not teaching "stacking" math. If a student can't stack a series of numbers and add them up, then in my opinion, they don't know how to do math very well.

How are they going to perform division, by drawing a group of items and then separating them into smaller groups? I submit that in the future, they will have neither the time or space to do this for larger calculations. Draw me your salary times 28% to figure your taxes for the year. Divide $2.39 by 80 ounces and $3.69 by 130 ounces and tell me which one is cheaper? Are they going to end up carrying around a large tablet to draw in?

Requiring an explanation of the answer is also valid, but the explanation could easily be because 7 + 7 equals 14. Understanding that 7 x 2 means the same thing as 7 + 7 is important and should be taught.

My biggest concern here is that the PWC school board has not provided any indication of how they are measuring the validity of the program or what the requirements are for a determination of success or failure. I would like a detailed plan that clearly states how and when the progress will be measured and against what benchmarks. I fear that without such a public plan, there is too much room for the School Board to reach a determination of success because they fear the ramifications of failure.

Before you ask me, yes, we have asked for such a plan and have received absolutely no response to the request.

Brad Hancock
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

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Actually, yes...
Submitted by TGBWC on Fri, 01/25/2008 - 8:31pm.

When a child is first taught division, you could draw, for example, 10 items and circle two equal groups of five, or five equal groups of ten. Of course you wouldn't draw 28% of your salary. Remember, these are second graders and second graders aren't doing division at that level. Once they can see the division, actually understand what it means, you then introduce your algorithms for larger calculations. In elementary school I was taught how to multiply with larger numbers stacked. Memorize the facts. I was taught to "borrow" (regroup is actually more acurate for what is being done)and I got the right answer. However, I never thought of the number I regrouped into the tens place for example, as a number of tens. I only thought of it as a single, isolated digit. People seem to be focused on the picture drawing strategy, but that is only one of the strategies being taught and it is at an early age so that they gain a better understanding of how the numbers are working.

I hear what you are saying about the measurement of success and failure of the program. I think the methods are good. The only thing I have questioned is how the schools are covering the SOL standards that are not met in the series, although I realize that no math series is 100% meshed with the VA SOL's. I have heard that the program is not to be supplemented, but to what extent that is true I don't know. From my experience, any math series should be one part of the whole math program and needs to be supplemented with additional materials.

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